Thursday, March 26, 2009

Resurrection - harder than it looks?

Part III of the ‘I Believe in Miracles’ series of articles for Frodology

Religions are usually chock full of miracles, and it's a good thing too, because otherwise they'd be as boring as going to church, and no one likes going to church. Not even Jesus. But full of entertaining, jaw-dropping, and stupefyingly improbable events as they are, religions keep you, me and Jesus sufficiently amused for an hour each week, bridging the gap between Sunday morning TV and brunch.

But in depending on their audiences' stunned credulity, religions are also extremely vulnerable. Because what if they're false?

If I understand my theology, and I think I do, Jesus was stapled to a more or less crossish plank of wood and left to die, which he eventually did after several Ridley Scott-inspired drawn out and highly dramatic sequences. Then, with a stunning Ronald Reagan-like refusal to die, he rose from the dead, and in doing so spawned a whole subgenre of amateurish horror films.

Now, the problem posed is that science currently doesn’t recognize resurrection as an activity of which humans are generally capable, opposable thumbs notwithstanding. Certainly, if we peruse history, we encounter several near misses:
  • In 1099, legend has it that El Cid fought off Death’s scythe and led his troops to victory over the Muslim hordes at the gates of Valencia. What the Muslims didn’t know was that El Cid had died and was simply strapped to his horse. He would later not come back to life.

  • Lord of Gondor and companion of Frodo, Boromir son of Denethor fought and killed several Uruk-hai while nursing a chest full of arrows. He died shortly thereafter, and other than a deleted scene in the subsequent film, would not come back to life either.

  • Jesus… oh, wait, never mind.

  • Anastasia Romanov was the daughter of the last Czar of Russia, and though believed for decades to have been murdered by Bolsheviks in 1917, was suspected by some still to be alive. A 1997 Disney film based on the myth captured the hearts of millions of children, until her decomposed body was discovered an almost comically short time later to prove that, no, in fact, she had died as advertized.

So, if Jesus was actually resurrected, history isn’t going to help us and we need to examine the hard science behind his particular case.

Possibility #1 – Jesus was a zombie

It has been demonstrated by countless films and highly unverifiable folklore that humans are capable of resurrection, the unfortunate caveat being that they become zombies. The traditional view of the zombie, or ‘undead’, is that of a mindless automaton that eats ‘brains’. This is of course a sexed up Hollywood stereotype. Prudent zombies are thought to be every bit as clued up on the dangers of hematophagy as a disease vector as we are, and are more discriminate in their consumption of blood products these days for the risk of HIV.

The one bit of evidence in support of this theory is that zombies are unhindered by serious blood loss. It is thought that Jesus’ own blood loss would have been prodigious due to his hemophilia which he would have inevitably inherited due to the eons of inbreeding kicked off by Adam and Eve.

Possibility #2 - Jesus was an immortal wizard

Alternatively, it is possible that, like Gandalf, Jesus was a wizard who couldn’t die, even after falling from a very great height and then climbing back up that very great height, all the while hacking and slashing at a demon wrought from smoke and fire.

Yeah, that'd be cool.

Possibility #3 - Jesus never lived

We must also recognize the chance that Jesus never lived in the first place. The so-called 'Jesus Myth' hypothesis, popularized by certain scholars of the ancient Middle East, states that the historical person of Jesus Christ was most likely an inanimate sack of flour, or perhaps a scarecrow. Accordingly, the physical attribute of never being alive would have made death less of a problem for Jesus, and crucifixion a mild inconvenience at most. 

It's all coming together...


The only complication still being researched by scientists is a linguistic one. The problem is it is not known whether 'to resurrect' is a reflexive verb. Those who argue a subject can resurrect itself have some explaining to do, as it is generally thought that dead people are incapable of acting out verbs.



Please feel free to read the other articles in the ‘Miracles’ series:
Part I - Is Jesus out of blood by now?
Part II - How hard is it for virgins to give birth?

57 comments:

Stan, the Half-Truth Teller said...

Possibility #2 - Jesus was an immortal wizard

I don't know... He sounds a lot more like an enchanter to me...

--
Stan

FrodoSaves said...

Ooh, the plot thickens...

piggymceatsalot said...

Glad to see that the drawing are back FS. I like the Wizard of OZ reference, too.....you could likely get more mileage out of that.

Dani' El said...

Aries Mar 21 - Apr 19

You'll have your legs broken, your teeth shattered, and your skull caved in by Jesus as he strikes out with his Cruci-Chuks while bellowing that "you should'a used bigger nails" during his unexpectedly macho return.


I'm proof that Jesus exists, posting right here, right now, seriously.

And I can only say, Frodo, you've got a serious ass kicking coming in the near future.

I think you'll survive it, but will you change your ways?

We'll see.

Don't go out in the thunderstorm; careful crossing the street good buddy. It's been nice knowing ya.
;)

Shalom,
Dani' El

FrodoSaves said...

An ass kicking? Who's going to kick my ass? Jesus? Someone sent by Jesus? Do you think the threat of being beaten up by someone I don't believe in will sway me from my disbelief? Perhaps not a threat, just a warning is it? Well I could ask you what the purpose of the actual physical beating would be, seeing as manifestation in physical form and a polite "yo, Frodo, I'm real" would be as effective and much more "Christ-like" than a brotherly mauling, don't you think?

Dani' El said...

yo, Frodo, I'm real

FrodoSaves said...

Oh, so it's you!

...

[Awkward silence]

Dani' El said...

You want Jesus to be polite?

To you?

Really?

I'll ask, but I think an ass kicking is in order.

Baconeater said...

I can't wait for imaginary Jesus to kick my ass, because I'll kick his ass right back. Oh wait, I gave up on imaginary situations like that when turned 7 or 8.

BeamStalk said...

What a strange God you worship Dani'El. Are you saying you are a physical manifestation of Jesus?

Frodo said: Well I could ask you what the purpose of the actual physical beating would be, seeing as manifestation in physical form and a polite "yo, Frodo, I'm real" would be as effective and much more "Christ-like" than a brotherly mauling, don't you think?

Frodo was asking for a physical manifestation of God/Jesus to speak to him. You replied.

Dani'El said: yo, Frodo, I'm real

I also don't understand this beating thing that seems very anti-christian. Was Jesus not quoted as saying: "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." (Matthew 26:52 NIV)

I also remember things such as Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

I don't know where beating someone up because they see no evidence to believe falls under Prince of Peace.

Also when it came to violence, Jesus was recorded saying the following, in the sermon on the mount or the plain depending which book you look in. "But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39) and "If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic." (Luke 6:29)

What God do you worship, Dani'El?

Dani' El said...

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Dani' El said...

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

FrodoSaves said...

Dani,

He wouldn't have to be polite, but politeness to ass kicking is a pretty substantial line to cross. All I'm saying is if your god wanted to announce his presence to the world, he could do it without resorting to violence befitting a petulant schoolyard bully.

-----

Baconeater,

Agreed. But that doesn't preclude you from drawing funny cartoons about them.

-----

BeamStalk,

I guess that's the benefit behind threatening violence that will be perpetrated by someone else. Ultimately, you're not responsible for the threat, and you can retreat behind contradictory rationales, because - hell - it's not like you wrote it.

Dani' El said...

Frodo, if you think that provoking God to reveal Himself to you by mocking and blaspheming Him is a good idea?

I would suggest a little politeness yourself.

Keep it up, and He'll reveal Himself alright.
Painfully.
I know by experience and have the scars to prove it.

Psa 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

Oolon Colluphid said...

It is a trilogy, but a trilogy in four parts. My upcoming fifth part will bring yet another whole new meaning to the word trilogy.

;)

Oolon Colluphid said...

The above comment has mysteriously appeared on the wrong thread.

Ignore it.

Oolon Colluphid said...

Possibility 4:

Jesus's disciples stole his body and put about the story that he was "ressurected", because they didn't want to look like dick-noses.

Matthew's gospel makes a point of denying that this is what happened, which does suggest that the idea was about at the time the author of Matthew was writing. I must admit, I wouldn't have even considered this unless the evangelist came up with his suspect denial.

For fans of 'the league of gentlemen' this is the equivalent of Tubs saying to a police officer investigating the disappearance of a hiker, "We didn't burn him!"

Dani' El said...

All I'm saying is if your god wanted to announce his presence to the world, he could do it without resorting to violence befitting a petulant schoolyard bully.

It's not like He's not been patient with you.

How can you sling turds at him night and day, and then call Him a bully when He gives you a couple of licks for your own good?

It's not like He's just looking to steal your lunch money. In fact, He's the one who gave you your lunch money and paid your tuition.
And yet you sling turds at Him night and day.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Just saying, maybe take it down a notch or two. I fear for you, Frodo.

Pro 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Stan, the Half-Truth Teller said...

You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him

/me marks his calendar

--
Stan

Anna Sethe said...

Possibility #2 - Jesus was an immortal wizard

I thought that was exactly what the Church preached for nearly 2000 years now...

Anonymous said...

"Now, the problem posed is that science currently doesn’t recognize resurrection as an activity of which humans are generally capable, opposable thumbs notwithstanding."

That's kinda the point of a miracle. If it was just some normal scientific thing it wouldn't be a miracle. Duh.

CodewordConduit said...

That's kinda the point of a miracle. If it was just some normal scientific thing it wouldn't be a miracle. Duh.

What's your favourite miracle?

FrodoSaves said...

I thought that was exactly what the Church preached for nearly 2000 years now...

No, as Stan points out, the official church position is that Jesus was an enchanter

FrodoSaves said...

How can you sling turds at him night and day, and then call Him a bully when He gives you a couple of licks for your own good?

That's like saying George Bush is perfectly entitled to wallop everyone who ridiculed or insulted him during his presidency.

Dani' El said...

Equating Bush with God?
More turd slinging.

Listen, the world has forgotten what it is to be the subject of a King, a Lord, God.

He owns your arse. He feeds you, gives you your next breath, he was not elected, He is God.

And that's the greatest problem most have in failing to understand God. They don't hold Him in reverence and awe due the Creator. They think Him to be like a man, a president.

But He could crush you like a bug at any time. Your a tiny filthy thing in His eyes and if you only knew what you were defying, you'd piss yourself right now.

I'm trying to put the fear of God in you Frodo, before He does it in spades.

Anna Sethe said...

Daniel said:
But He could crush you like a bug at any time. Your a tiny filthy thing in His eyes

So God created tiny filthy things? Couldn't he do any better?

Dani' El said...

Anna, or is it Tilia?

How have you been in Deutschland?

God makes it right and is glorified by redeeming us from that state by the sacrifice of His Son Yeshua.
All part of the plan y'know.

If there was no fall, then no need for redemption.

Dani' El said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dani' El said...

Frodo quoth thus- No, as Stan points out, the official church position is that Jesus was an enchanter

I don't know if your aware of all the curses and legends about Jesus in Rabbinic Judaism, but one is that Jesus was a magician whose miracles were evil deceptions etc.

One holds that Jesus somehow discovered the original name of God, since no one knows how to properly pronounce YHWH, and that he wrote it on a piece of paper and stitched it into his thigh, etc.

There were periods where daily curses against Jewish believers were read in the Synagogue and one tradition even holds that Jesus was boiling in sewage in hell.

Most folks don't know that what set Luther off was his discovery of these things, as well as Jewish efforts to proselytize in Germany.
Previous to that, Luther was very friendly with the Jews.

Also, to this day most Jews call Jesus or Yeshua, "Yesha" which is an anagram for "may his name be forgotten".

All of which are but a few of the reasons my coming work in Israel will be very, very difficult.

CodewordConduit said...

Dani, I'm sorry but you're going to have to source these "Jew" claims. Any half-baked bigot who reads them could use them to personally fan his or her latent anti-semitism, and unfortunately you lend heavy credence to them with your claims of Jewish ancestry.

I'm sure that you're aware that Luther's "...Jews and their Lies" was actually mass printed and put on prominent display during Hitler's regime.

Just an example of how (according to you) well intentioned claims can be misunderstood and used to feed mass hysteria. So clarify, please.

Peace.

Sarah.

Dani' El said...

Sarah, I think you know how fierce I am in defending the Jews and I would never slander them, esp as a Jew.

Most of what I know about this was from study of the issue over the last 3 1/2 years.
I'm trying to remember/find the name of a messianic Jewish apologist who is an expert in the Talmud.
He uses it to evangelize to fellow Jews, as there are many things that support Jesus as Messiah there.
I'll find it and get back, but for now there is this-

-----------------------------
http://watch.pair.com/HRChrist.html

"...the Toledot Yeshu relates with the most indecent details that Miriam, a hairdresser of Bethlehem,4. affianced to a young man named Jochanan, was seduced by a libertine, Joseph Panther or Pandira, and gave birth to a son whom she named Johosuah or Jeschu. According to the Talmudic authors of the Sota and the Sanhedrim, Jeschu was taken during his boyhood to Egypt, where he was initiated into the secrets doctrines of the priests, and on his return to Palestine gave himself up to the practice of magic. 5. The Toledot Yeshu, however, goes on to say that on reaching manhood, Jeschu learnt the secret of his illegitimacy, on account of which he was driven out of the Synagogue and took refuge for a time in Galilee."
"Now, there was in the Temple a stone on which was engraved the Tetragrammaton [YHWH] or Schem Hamphorasch, that is to say, the Ineffable Name of God; this stone had been found by King David when the foundations of the Temple were being prepared and was deposited by him in the Holy of Holies. Jeschu, knowing this, came from Galilee and, penetrating into the Holy of Holies, read the Ineffable name, which he transcribed on to a piece of whom parchment and concealed in an incision under his skin. By this means he was able to work miracles and to persuade the people that he was the son of God foretold by Isaiah. With the aid of Judas, the Sages of the Synagogue, succeeding in capturing Jeschu, who was then lead before the Great and Little Sanhedrim, by whom he was condemned to be stoned to death and finally hanged." Such is the story of Christ according to the Jewish Kabbalists ..." 5.

Jewish sources avoid the Greek name "Jesus", meaning 'savior', and abbreviate Jeschua to "Jeshu' which means "may his name be blotted out!"

"…name in Hebrew would be Jeschua Hanotsri--Jesus the Nazarene. He is called Notsri from the city of Nazareth… In the Talmud Christians are also called Notsrim. (Amongst other things). 'Since the word Jeschua means 'Savior,' the name Jesus rarely occurs in the Jewish books. It is almost always abbreviated to Jeschu… as if it were composed of the initial letters of the three words Immach SCHemo Vezikro-- (meaning)- -'May his name be blotted out.'" 4.

Dani' El said...

And Sarah, the nazi's distorted everything, even the old testament, new testament, whatever, and they did the same with Luther.

I'll get more on what happened with Luther and get back later.

Dani' El said...

This from one of the oldest Messianic ministries, Moriel.

http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/jesus_in_the_talmud.htm

There is something in Orthodox synagogues called ha bierkat ha minim; they call it a blessing, but in reality it is a curse. There is also something known in the synagogue liturgy called the shmona asrey: Jesus is called Yeshu instead of Yeshua; they shorten His name to an acronym to mean 'May His name be blotted out'. They pray that the minim, a collective term for theological dissidents within the Jewish community that included Messianic Jewish believers in Jesus, will be blotted out of the Book of Life. To Jewish Christians, therefore, it is very confusing to see fellow believers who are in philo-Semitic organizations and the like, lifting up Judaism and shaking hands with Rabbis

Dani' El said...

The apologist I was trying to remember is named Michael Brown and he wrote a series of books called "overcoming Jewish objections to Jesus".
Great stuff.
Brown is one of the better debators out there for the Messianics.

Maybe a parody blog is not the place for this, but I've already gone into it. I should explain.

I hate to repeat some of this stuff, but it should be noted that Jesus described the "Synagogue of Satan" and "Jews who lie and are not" (Rev 2:9) and this was referring to Kaballah and other occult groups, but for many centuries, the sages blashphemed Christ and taught some terrible stuff.
And I can tell you it did not go over too well in heaven. It was one of the reasons for the terrible suffering of the Jews over the centuries. Those days are ending soon, thank God.

Here's that last of it, Sarah.
And the case of Luther is a tough one. He did great evil towards the end, but his hatred was not racial but theological. Still not justified.

The last references-
-----------------------

......For example, on the website of the Orthodox Jewish Hasidic Lubavitch group--one of the largest in the world--we find the following statement, complete with Talmudic citations:

"The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of 'Jesus the Nazarene':

1) He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).

2) He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3) He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh, which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

End quote from http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm (Lubavitch website) June 20, 2000.

Let us examine further some of these anti-Christ Talmud passages:

Gittin 57a. Says Jesus is in hell, being boiled in "hot excrement."

CodewordConduit said...

Okay Dani, but for your implication that this is part of the reason that Jews have suffered throughout history is invalid. How many nations and creeds have disparaged the Bible and what is taught within? By your logic the blasphemous creators of South Park should be living terrible lives because of the irreverent way they have portrayed Jesus and Christianity.

Jews have historically been singled out by Christianity because they refuse to accept the divinity of Jesus, and in doing so undermine the credibility of Paul and his teachings somewhat.

Do you maintain that the persecution of the Jews is divine in essence or is it a man-made construct divorced from the teachings of Christ?

Dani' El said...

Okay Dani, but for your implication that this is part of the reason that Jews have suffered throughout history is invalid.

But this is exactly what the OT prophets said would happen. After rejecting the Messiah, the Temple would be destroyed and Israel scattered over the whole world.

Remember this is the third Diaspora, and the previous ones were clearly described as judgments.
I'll not post all the verses but they are numerous, saying that Israel would be given over to her enemies and through that be under God's wrath for her sins. Scripture declares that Israel suffers double for her sins as she should know better. This is carried into the NT where the servant who knows God's will and does not do it, receives more stripes.

Isa 40:2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.


// How many nations and creeds have disparaged the Bible and what is taught within?//

Many, and they are always destroyed sooner or later. That's one of the key themes of last days prophecy, that all the nations where Israel was scattered will be destroyed, and only Israel punished but preserved.

// By your logic the blasphemous creators of South Park should be living terrible lives because of the irreverent way they have portrayed Jesus and Christianity.//

Wait for it. I believe they are under the coming judgment of Luke 17. When someone suffers for their sins, like Israel, it is judgment, but suffering for the Truth is persecution which tests, purifies etc. When the wicked prosper, they only serve to heap wrath upon themselves for the day of judgment.

//Jews have historically been singled out by Christianity because they refuse to accept the divinity of Jesus, and in doing so undermine the credibility of Paul and his teachings somewhat.//

Most of the persecution of the Jews by professing Christians has come from the Apostate RCC; the same church responsible for many thousands of gentile martyrdoms.
There has really never been a truly Christian nation, but the Jews have prospered best in nations with a protestant majority.
It's not a simple issue, but one of the things that encourages me is that when I get to Israel, I'll have a much better knowledge (from God) of the statistics and details of all these things, and it will help with my work in Israel.

//Do you maintain that the persecution of the Jews is divine in essence or is it a man-made construct divorced from the teachings of Christ?//

Understanding the sovereignty of God can be a challenge, but as I said before, God did sovereignly give Israel over to her enemies in judgment, which does not remove the responsibility of the instrument of that judgment, including evil nations and armies.

The Assyrians, the Babylonians even the Nazis were used like an ugly stick to punish Israel, then afterwards, the purified remnant receives mercy, and that stick is broken and thrown into the fire.

So in the vast majority of cases, the persecution of the Jews was not obedience to the teaching of Christ, but still a judgment from God.

The book of Exekiel is called the holy of holies of prophecy as it describes the in-gathering and conversion of Israel after the Diaspora. Israel is clearly said to be dry dead bones, not knowing God, in unbelief as she is today.
And that she suffered for her sins.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

--------------------
With all apologies to Master Frodo for killing the mirth. ;)

CodewordConduit said...

So you contend that God actively willed the persecution of the Jews? Hitler did what God wanted him to? In this case why should any Christian condemn his actions?

Dani' El said...

Again, the great challenge of the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man is a mystery; an antipathy that cannot be fully understood by men.

//So you contend that God actively willed the persecution of the Jews?//

In judgment for their sins, yes. He gave them/us over to their/our enemies.


//Hitler did what God wanted him to?//

Hitler did what God allowed
and through that, Israel was punished and a remnant driven home to the promised land.

Jer 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them;...

(The Zionist movement starting in the late 1800's. Very few answered the call to go home to Zion. They had forgotten God, forgotten Jerusalem, they "were Germans now".)

....and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

(Hunters- the Nazis, the Progroms, the Dhimmi Ghettos in Arab lands, all drove a remnant home to Eretz Y'israel.)

//In this case why should any Christian condemn his actions?//

One could say the same of Judas, or even Satan. In fact many do just that.
Simply because God uses the wicked to fulfill what is called His permissive will, does not remove their guilt for their evil works as their motivations are out of rebellion.
The book of Job is the classical demonstration of this.

Satan was the means that God used to test, prove and bring increase to Job, yet Satan's motivations were to destroy and cause Job to curse God to His face.

I'm sure that the book of Job is one of Satan's most hated books as it clearly shows how his efforts are turned against him, and how he unintentionally serves God's purposes. How he must get permission from God and this exposes his lies that he is "his own self made man."

Dani' El said...

AND- even to the cross.
Satan entered Judas, not in obedience to God to fulfill the sacrifice of the Lamb, but in defiance, to destroy, to enjoy the suffering of the Son of God.

Yet if they had not, then the world would have been lost.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

FrodoSaves said...

With all apologies to Master Frodo for killing the mirth. ;)

Who says it's dead?

Understanding the sovereignty of God can be a challenge, but as I said before, God did sovereignly give Israel over to her enemies in judgment, which does not remove the responsibility of the instrument of that judgment, including evil nations and armies.

I was wondering how you'd deal with that. This contradiction always strikes as me as revealing because it flies in the face of traditional Christian tactics whereby the believer purports to have answers for pretty much everything. There are of course theological corners that, once backed into, the only skyhook out is a choice between the equally watery "God's ways are higher than ours", "who are you to fathom the ineffable mind of God (did I mention that it's not effable?)", and the classic "God works in mysterious ways."

Color me dubious.

Even with phrases like "Hitler did what God allowed" you paint a picture which suggests that, in the absence of other options, Hitler had little choice but to murder millions of Jews. What use is it to speak of someone 'opting' for a single choice? After all, if it was God's plan to make the Jews pay, and achieved his aim through offering his stooges the hollow pretense of a decision, how is he any different than the Jigsaw Killer, the twisted sociopathic antagonist of the Saw films? You might like to maintain otherwise, but any claims as to the moral superiority of a deity should succumb to human analogy, i.e. don't tell us what to do when your god fails to meet his own standards.

Dani' El said...

Verily, I feeleth as tho' I hath breaketh wind at the renaissance faire.

Eze 18:25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair?
Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies.
Eze 18:27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive.
Eze 18:28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?

Master Frodo, no offense but you have a brain the size (and shape for that matter) of a Roma Tomato and also a fallen sinful nature, so your (or my) inability to understand fully the mystery of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility is going to fall short.

It is evidence of our vanity that we make judgments like, "If I don't understand it, it must not be so" esp when considering that in man's fallen state, he judges the murder of 50 million unborn infants to be considered a "right".

So your judgment is bad, your ability to understand or know, severely limited, and God's is infinite and transcendent.

I'll run with God, thanks.

I could say more, but it would so blow my cover.

Shalom from your friend,
Dani' El

Dani' El said...

//"...the Jigsaw Killer, the twisted sociopathic antagonist of the Saw films?" //

You mean you watch that stuff?
I never understood the attraction of that garbage, I do now.

FrodoSaves said...

You mean you watch that stuff?

No, I've never seen a single one. I frankly find the whole 'torture porn' genre nauseating. But the analogy was still useful.

Master Frodo, no offense but you have a brain the size (and shape for that matter) of a Roma Tomato and also a fallen sinful nature, so your (or my) inability to understand fully the mystery of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility is going to fall short.

Equally, your ability to interpret your senses and reason (or not) your way to a conclusion is limited by the same unimpressive size and shape of said tomato. It's far more likely that this primitive organ constructed an imaginary deity whose chief characteristics (i.e. ineffability) are merely a projection of man's limited intellect, than it is that such a being actually exists and is so thoroughly preoccupied with the owners of those primitive organs. If anything speaks to the vanity of man, it's the latter.

Anna Sethe said...

Dani' El said...

Anna, or is it Tilia?


Wow, did you figure that out all by yourself? Or did Stew help you?

How have you been in Deutschland?

Fine, thanks. Spring is approaching as is the pagan Holiday dedicated to the goddess Ostara

God makes it right and is glorified by redeeming us from that state by the sacrifice of His Son Yeshua.
All part of the plan y'know.


Still, it's a stupid plan. Why does this God of yours always sounds like a Bronze Age patriachalic bully?

If there was no fall, then no need for redemption.

If your God didn't want the fall to happen, it wouldn't have happened, don't you think?

Dani' El said...

D-Anna, or is it Tilia?

A- //Wow, did you figure that out all by yourself? Or did Stew help you?//

Stew? (why Stew???)....No just me.
You were saying Tilia style stuff, and then I saw Germany on your profile. Simple.

D-How have you been in Deutschland?

T-//Fine, thanks. Spring is approaching as is the pagan Holiday dedicated to the goddess Ostara//

D- You mean that tyrant ostara who allowed the fall of Eve? She's nasty.

D-God makes it right and is glorified by redeeming us from that state by the sacrifice of His Son Yeshua.
All part of the plan y'know.

A- //Still, it's a stupid plan. Why does this God of yours always sounds like a Bronze Age patriachalic bully?//

D- Or was it the plan of that new age feminazi tyrant ostara? You sound confused.

D- If there was no fall, then no need for redemption.

A- //If your God didn't want the fall to happen, it wouldn't have happened, don't you think?//

That's right.
He allows you to breath His air, even though you curse Him with it, go figure.
Why does he allow you?
As it is written, "as a testimony against you."

Shalom out!
Dani' El

Dani' El said...

Frodo //No, I've never seen a single one. I frankly find the whole 'torture porn' genre nauseating. But the analogy was still useful.//

Whew! Good to hear. I confess that comment surprised me. Why do people eat that stuff up? DEPRAVITY OF MAN.
(but you did know the lead character's name and tactics etc. hmmm)

//Equally, your ability to interpret your senses and reason (or not) your way to a conclusion is limited by the same unimpressive size and shape of said tomato.//

Not if what is revealed comes from the Tomato Source (with pasta, quite good. eh? eh?)

//It's far more likely that this primitive organ constructed an imaginary deity whose chief characteristics (i.e. ineffability)....blabity blah blah.//

Constructed using what?
The abstract, invariant, universal laws of logic? lol!
Tag, your it.

remigius said...

FrodoSaves. Looks like you've caught a live one. You lucky, lucky bastard.

When you've finished playing with it could you send it over to Freethinker. We haven't had a nutter of that quality for ages.

Things just aren't the same since Bob 'died'.

Dani' El said...

@ Remigius-

I guess that's a challenge, with an ad hom cherry on top. Very brave.

I'll take a look at freethinker, but if that's your A game? Well.

remigius said...

Dani'El. Why do you assume I was referring to you? Are we to add narcissism to a growing list of your personality disorders?

It was the word 'nutter' that gave it away wasn't it.

Dani' El said...

Sigh.
Another Ad hom artist. Yawn.

Oh well.

remigius said...

Dani'El. I had taken the time to read all of your previous postings on this blog before I commented.

Not once do you use reasoned argument, or show any sign of rational thought. It's either biblical shite, threats of violence, or personal insults. Ass-kicking and tomato brain spring to mind.

I just assumed you would wish to be addressed by those same standards.

Since reason fails ad hom prevails.

Twat. And that's not an attack, it's an observation.

Dani' El said...

remigius-

Why do you assume I was referring to you? Are we to add narcissism to a growing list of your personality disorders?

Yeah, Frodo, CC and I like to joke around a bit. This is a parody site after all, but it's never mean spirited until someone else goes there.

Shalom to you anyway,
Dani' El

remigius said...

Touche!

FrodoSaves said...

Dani,

Whew! Good to hear. I confess that comment surprised me. Why do people eat that stuff up? DEPRAVITY OF MAN.
(but you did know the lead character's name and tactics etc. hmmm)


I read about the film on Wikipedia a little while ago to discover what all the hype was about. I decided it wasn't something I'd be watching. I'm not sure why people lap it up. Misdirected manly show of bravado? Morbid fascination? Masochism? Followers of the Marquis de Sade? Honestly though, I would agree with you that it's pretty depraved.

Not if what is revealed comes from the Tomato Source (with pasta, quite good. eh? eh?)

A patch of dirt in the ground? Hmm, that's deep.

Yeah, you liked that one didn't you?

Constructed using what?
The abstract, invariant, universal laws of logic? lol!
Tag, your it.


My it what? Hah! I can dwell on trivial things too. I was serious though. I do feel like claiming that god's mind is unfathomable is just a reflection of our limited intellect. If we can't explain certain phenomena, then we can't expect to rely on god to explain it for us either if we made him up to cover up our ignorance. Seems like something of a red flag to me.

FrodoSaves said...

remigius,

You might call Dani an acquired taste. We obviously disagree on nearly everything. His forte for biblical verse doesn't hold much water with me, and from his perspective he's already heard everything I have to say. So we bicker around in circles for a while, get diverted by lame puns and scholarly insight into Frodological scripture, talk about music for a little while, and then generally finish up in time to repeat it all three days later. He likes to wave the 'ad hom' card as much as we complain that he hasn't addressed our points. Like Dani says, it's not mean spirited, and amidst the swathes of disagreement we manage to have a laugh. Anyway, just thought I'd put it all into context for you a little.

But more to the point, welcome!

Dani' El said...

Frodo //If we can't explain certain phenomena, then we can't expect to rely on god to explain it for us either if we made him up to cover up our ignorance. Seems like something of a red flag to me.//

The "ifs" are piling up.

Well, you know I have too much tangible proof in addition to what is spiritually revealed to not know better.
My job #1 is to tell you that you'll have your proof soon enough as well.

I also wanted to note-
I believe due to their diminutive size, a Hobbit's brain is probably about the size and shape of a Roma Tomato.
It was not meant as an insult/ad hom.

;)

Vitamin R said...

I like possibility one. Zombies are cool, even religious ones. Plus, I can totally picture Jeebus biting Pilot, looking into the camera and saying: "This time, it's personal."

Like Steven Segall, only not creepy.

Plus, it's more fitting with the theme of religion, which is all about pissing one's pants over some supposed "afterlife", and the direction one's "soul" will travel in. Zombie-Jeebus fits in with that way better than Jeebus the Enchanter.

Possibility 4 is . . . well, impossible. How could Jeebus be a zombie if he never existed?

Duh. Anyone who leaned toward possibility 4 just got served.